heating the pole building ?

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heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
I know some of you know a thing or two about heating. I am looking into heating our 1500 sq ft building so I can do some painting and general working in it. Keep in mind I have no wood to cut, no propane or gas on the property. The building does have 220 volt on a 100 amp service panel. With that said I was thinking of a good way to heat it. I can get a new 57,000 btu trailer furnace for like 300 bucks and just run it open with no duck work or a new 27,000 btu heater for around 200 bucks.

Any input Thanks
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

motogrady

an electric furnace is gonna kill you on the bill
1,500, that's a good size space.
My house, 1,800 with all electric, 10kw with heatpump, $400 a month in the
dead of winter is hard to avoid.
if it's a pole building, you prob have tall ceilings,
a ceiling fan helps there.
but anyway you look at it, straight electric is gonna be expensive to run.
especially if there isn't a lot on insulation and the place isn't real tight.
30,000 is gonna be marginal when it gets real cold.

now, if it was a 85,000 btu old oil furnace, sucking fuel out of a 55 gallon drum,
that would do it.
 
Best bill  these days,  imo for what you have going on, would be a 70, or 90 thousand btu
condensing gas furnace, the kind with a pvc vent, converted to propane, with 2
100 pound tanks out back.

but hey, one good thing about electric, flameless and unlimited fuel.

Where's shiney, he does this stuff, he might have a better way.



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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
motogrady You are scaring me on the heat pump. We just had a new one put in. I was told that it should not run me more then 200 - 300 a month. At our old place I had a new gas furnace put in and in the dead of winter my heating was like 150 -200 in a 1700 sq ft house.

I would not want to heat it all the time and there is not insulation at all. I am just looking for a good means of heat for if I want to go out to get some work do or tinker.

I do plan on insulating it and maybe even dividing up a part of the building just for working in.

Thanks for the info. Lets hope this heat pump is as good as the contractor said. So far it is a nice warm heat.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

motogrady


Heatpumps, have come a long way in 20 years.

To get your best bill with a HP, set it at 70 to 73 and leave it there.
It's gonna run all the time, and it feels like it;s blowing cold air,
but in the long run of a month, that will give you your best bill.

The key is to stay off the aux heat, which is usually electric heaters
that look just like the insides of a toaster.  They pull 4 times the
juice the heatpump does.  You'd think turning the thing down at night
would save, but the 30 times a month you turn the thermostat up
in the morning brings the electric heaters on.  Usually, move the stat 3 degrees
above the temp in the room does it.

You don't mess with it, they might come on in the dead of night for a bit,
when it gets so cold outside the pump can't quite keep up.

And keep the filter clean.
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Re: heating the pole building ?

TOOLS1
Administrator
In reply to this post by shultz_1978
Salamander! (I think that is how its spelled) Perfect for a shop like yours.
TOOLS
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
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Re: heating the pole building ?

motogrady


There ya go, painters and drywall finishers would be lost without them in new construction.
The gas ones are good, but the oil fired ones make some people queasy with the smell.
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
In reply to this post by TOOLS1
Wow those thing are a wee bet pricy Cheapest one I have seen is 615. Maybe I would stick with dividing it up and heater a corner like a single car garage.

Funds are just not there for a 6 - 7 hundred dollar heater.

Thanks guys
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

motogrady

If you could get 2- 55 gal drums, and a load of wood or coal, these kick ass.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/product__10151_-1_10001_10147_CrossSellPDP
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
I was thinking about that one grady. I may have to look into that a little more.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

TOOLS1
Administrator
In reply to this post by shultz_1978
Look on Craigslist.
TOOLS
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
Maybe this would do for a little heat. http://youngstown.craigslist.org/clo/4147653569.html

Going to check it out after work and get the btu's

Guy says he used it off and on for about a year when his gas furnace went out.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shinyribs
Administrator
In reply to this post by motogrady
motogrady wrote

Where's shiney, he does this stuff, he might have a better way.
No need for me,Grado. You got it under control here.

*EDIT*- I got to rambling.So, the short version: get one of these.

I with Grado 100% on everything concerning the heat pump. How to operate it,how much better they operate,etc. But I will say that a pole building with a HP better be well insulated and TIGHT!

IMO,for a workshop area that you only want heated while you're using it the cheapest heat is the fastest heat. You're not trying yo maintain a set temperature over a long period of time,you just want to knock the chill off while you're trying to work. And there's no faster heat than a flame.

If you could find a waste oil furnace you'd be golden. Use all your old oil changes for heating fuel. You said wood is not available to you,but wood stoves heat up slow anyway. Not good for running in the shop for a couple hours in the evening.

If you go with a fuel burning furnace you're gonna have to  install some kind of ductwork.Even if it's extremely minimal. Without any ductwork at all the fan will never move any amount of air to accomplish anything. They need the static pressure created by the resistance of the ductwork to work properly. Even if you just install a real basic throat off the unit and a couple large branches it would heat TONS better and faster than no ductwork at all.

Are you planning on staying at this location for a long time? If so,I would maybe pick up a temporary heat source on the cheap while you save up for your permanent heat system.

Turbo heaters work very well and I never burn expensive kerosene in mine.I always use offroad diesel. Sure,it puffs a little balck smoke when it first lights and when it goes off,but with the high ceilings in a shop like yours you will never notice it.

A 50,000 btu unit will run about $200 usually.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200443885_200443885?utm_campaign=bazaarvoice&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=RatingsAndReviews&utm_content=Default

50,000 btu's is about the minimum you should be probably be using for a shop your size,but remember these heaters are 100% efficient. Meaning,since they have no flue,all 50,000 of those btu's are introduced in to your building as useable heat. Most of your standard furnaces are 80-85 % efficient ,so you have to oversize the input btu's to reach the amount of heat output that is actually needed. The higher efficiency models Grado mentioned that use a pvc flue pipe are running 92-97% efficient. Basically,they kick a$$. The furnace itself is a tad more expensive,but since you don't have to build a flue or a chimney you save big bucks right there.


shultz_1978 wrote
Yipee  Got a new place to play with some toys.
I need to get a few thing straighten up and put away, But I am a very happy fella.
Now,since this is the shop in question,your heating requirements are nothing short of insane. Tall ceilings and uninsulated metal walls-worst case scenario.Especially for a heat pump.Also,since it was designed as a pole building I doubt the floor was designed with any sort of thermal break in it,so you floor is gonna be colder than what you might run into in a typical house type situation. I know you don't want to spend the money on fully insulating your shop and/or closing off the ceiling right now,so IMO I'd say get a turbo heater and just point it in your general direction. You'd be surprised just how well they heat. It's instant heat,fairly cheap and it's completely portable.With your high ceiling fumes will be a non issue.

As far as fuel consumption with one of these goes;mine is a 50k btu and it has a .50 nozzle. Which means it burns 1/2 a gallon of fuel per hour of run time. So 5 gallons will give you 10 hours of heat. If you install an actual oil furnace you'd be looking at a 75,000-90,000 btu furnace. Those sizes are going to give you anywhere from a 3/4 gallon per hour to a 1 gallon per hour fuel consumption rate. But,oil furnaces are only available as standard efficiency models (80-85%),there are no 90%+ efficiency models to be had with fuel oil,so you have to consider flue heat losses in to that.

Natural gas/propane fuel consumption rates are harder to calculate,but the fuel itself is cheaper. Well, maybe no LP. That stuff is up to about $4/lb in my area. Also,some areas wont sell you a storage tank for your LP anymore,they require you to lease it,so you might want to check in to the added cost of leasing a tank. Of course,I'm talking about permanent tanks. You know,the submarine out in the yard You can buy the smaller portable tanks that you carry in to be refilled,which is a pain,but going to refilling stations are typically cheaper than having a truck come by and filling your permanent tank. Usually about $1/lb cheaper.

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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
Funny thing is my floor has a radiant loop in it.  Never check it to see if it hold pressure or not.

That would take for ever to heat up. I don't even know if it runs through the whole building or not.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
 Do I go check out the electric salamander. I don't know
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

TOOLS1
Administrator
Not electric! Fuel oil, or Kerosene.
TOOLS
Life is not about the number of breaths, you take, but the moments that take your breath away.
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
Never confuse education for intelligence.
Happiness is a belt fed weapon.
I just can't imagine what could go wrong.
No fire? No explosions? So whats the point of your story?
Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato
It couldn't be done, but the darn fool didn't know it, and did it anyway.
We all got problems. Ksharp
I like vintage bikes because they take me away from the clutter of technology that I work with everyday and back to a simpler time of mechanical elegance and simplicity.. "ninadm"
Darkwing Duck: The worst part of public transportation is the Public.
"That is awesome shit there" Re-Run
"Fear nothing, attack everything" Eric Berry
" Oh, you read that on the internet? Clearly it IS a massive problem. Of course it CAN’t be normal operation."

1976 CB 750-A X 2
1977 CB 750-A X 4
1977 CB 750-K
1976 CB 750 F
1981 CB 750
1966 Kawasaki SG 250
1981 KZ 750 LTD
1973 CB 350
1979 CM 185 Twinstar
1982 Honda XL 80
South of Eden (Kansas City MO)
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shinyribs
Administrator
In reply to this post by shultz_1978
shultz_1978 wrote
Funny thing is my floor has a radiant loop in it.  Never check it to see if it hold pressure or not.

That would take for ever to heat up. I don't even know if it runs through the whole building or not.
 You lucky dog! Radiant floor heat is the bomb!

What heat is in the house? If it has a boiler you can run a zone out there and call it a day. If you kept the thermostat on the shop sett at a comfortable temp I doubt you even notice much of a difference on your heating bill. Once that floor gets warm it's gonna want to stay warm. Depending on the thermal break,of course.


But either way,I'm with Tools. That electric salamander is gonna be a juice hog. It's gonna be just like heating with a straight electric furnace but without the benefit of having a duct system to spread the heat around evenly.
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Re: heating the pole building ?

motogrady
In reply to this post by shultz_1978


Guys, I was on a job today, the customer had a real small turbo heater,
hooked up to a 100lb propane tank, the tall ones, and it did pretty good.
He has a shop built along the back of a Subway sandwich shop, all metal
with light coming thru just about every crack and seam in there.
Working on 4 wheelers, told me that's all he uses.

Not the best time of the year to look for a deal on heating equipment,
but if craigslist had a propane turbo heater, and one could find a 30lb tank
(any gas grill has one), poof, you're in business.
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
In reply to this post by shinyribs
Shiny the house had a boiler in it but the PO had it taken out and put in a heat pump. When they give up the house they sold every thing even the heat pump, So we had a new heat pump put in. the air handler is in the attic.

So I do not have a boiler to use. Think I may go with the torpedo heater for now.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shinyribs
Administrator
 Torpedo's get the job done.
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Re: heating the pole building ?

shultz_1978
I picked up a 60,000 btu torpedo heater and let me tell you in low 30's I was lucky to get it to maybe upper 40's to low 50's.

I don't think I can paint in those temp's  We did clean up some trees and had on trimmed and I got about three truck loads of wood. I have like 4-5 smaller trees behind the building that I am going to cut. So now I have some wood to burn. About a truck load was even dead and dry.

I think I am also going to get a double barrel wood burner to set up in one of the corners.

On the look for barrels one needs to have a removable lid.
Simple if some one else can, why can't I
Jamie
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